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Words of Radiance Reread: Interludes 7 and 8

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<em>Words of Radiance</em> Reread: Interludes 7 and 8

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Words of Radiance Reread: Interludes 7 and 8

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Published on April 16, 2015

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Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl viewed the storm and the hammock with their respective curmudgeonly occupants and cheeky whippersnappers. This week, we see the outcome of two incomprehensible experiences and their respective forms of madness.

This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.

 

Interlude 7: Taln

Point of View: the-person-who-calls-himself-Taln
Setting: the Shattered Plains
Symbology: Nine Falling Stars, Chanarach, Joker

 

IN WHICH fires; words; Bordin reports on his trip from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains; fires; Wit; fires; the madman repeats his litany; mistaken (?) assumptions are made; the madman continues his litany; more assumptions are made; questions are asked.

Quote of the Week:

“Well, he said that he’d needed, uh, I had this remembered for you. He said, ‘I needed an objective frame of reference by which to judge the experience of your company. Somewhere between four and five blows, I place it.’ I don’t rightly understand what he meant, sir. I think he was mocking me.”

“Safe bet.”

Poor Bordin. Traveling with Hoid in one of his moods must have been quite the experience. To say nothing of traveling with the-person-who-calls-himself-Taln, rambling unintelligibly most of the time.

Commentary: I have more questions than comments on this particular interlude.

First, is this or is this not Talenel-Elin, Herald of War? After TWoK, Brandon seemed to have no problem referring to the dude who showed up at the gates in the Epilogue as “Taln”—but after WoR, he’s been mighty coy about referring to him only as the one who “calls himself Taln.” What’s up with that?

I have to think that either this is Taln, or he’s been coached very, very well to believe that he is. He’s got that whole “fires of damnation” thing down pretty well, I’d say. Reading what goes on in his mind, I have no trouble believing that this is the one Herald who held on to his Oathpact for 4500 years.

Second, what was Hoid up to with accompanying Bordin and “Taln” part of the way, and then suddenly running off into the mountains? All I can say about the timing of this episode is that it takes place before Wit returns to the Shattered Plains… which doesn’t say much, because we haven’t seen him since the end of TWoK.

Third, what is the deal with this Blade? In the TWoK Epilogue, it seemed obvious that the reason the Blade didn’t vanish when Taln dropped it is that it was an Honorblade, which we already knew would only vanish automatically when the true owner was killed. It also seems obvious that the Blade Dalinar references here, the one he will use to trap Amaram, is not the same as the one we saw in that Epilogue. So I say again, what’s up?

Comments, though: we do (or do we?) learn a bit about some of the other Heralds and what they typically did when they returned to prepare for a Desolation. Kalak will teach them to cast bronze; Vedel will train the surgeons; Jezrien will teach leadership; Taln will train the soldiers. And he knows about the Knights Radiant.

“I think… I think I am late… this time…”
How long had it been?
How long had it been?
How long had it been?
How long had it been?
How long had it been?
How long had it been?
How long had it been?

Too long.

 

Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?: Well? Have we, or have we not?

 

Heraldic Symbolism: I’m not sure what this character icon means. Are those stars? Or swords? What’s with the mountains? My first thought was that it represented the Heralds—but there are only nine stars, not ten. Thoughts?

Oddly, the Heralds icons here are Chach and the Joker, and not Taln. I always associated the Joker with Wit, but I’m reliably informed that this particular icon signifies not only Hoid/Wit, but also sometimes a deception or wild card (hence, the Joker). Chach, I suspect, is here due to the frequent references to fire, but she could also represent her associated attributes of brave/obedient for Taln’s courage and obedience in holding to the Oathpact. On the other hand, the fact that we don’t see Taln as one of the two Herald icons is the thing that makes me most question the identity of “the person who calls himself Taln” in this scene.

 

Interlude 8: A Form of Power

Point of View: Eshonai-Stormform
Setting: Narak
Symbology: Listener, Nalan

 

IN WHICH Eshonai returns to her people, bearing a new form; she displays new skills as well as a different armor (and new hair); she feels the wind writhe around her, and knows that she controls it now; she sees everything clearly with her new red eyes; Venli is in awe that the experiment worked; Eshonai can feel a new storm beyond the Rhythms; she pointedly ignores the voice deep inside her, screaming in horror.

Quote of the Week:

“Cast aside despair and sing to the Rhythm of Joy! I have looked into the depths of the Storm Rider’s eyes, and I have seen his betrayal. I know his mind, and have seen his intent to help the humans against us. But my sister has discovered salvation! With this form we can stand on our own, independent, and we can sweep our enemies from this land like leaves before the tempest!”

This just hurts. Oh, the lies. “We can stand on our own, independent.” Or, you know, not so much. More like, “We can be controlled by the old gods, slaves to their will. But hey, at least we’re really strong slaves.”

 

Commentary: The last sentence of this interlude almost broke my heart. The real Eshonai, the one we were coming to know and like, is trapped deep inside this form-of-power Eshonai; that Eshonai knows what is happening, and knows it’s bad, bad badbadbadbad.

We’ve speculated before, I think, that perhaps Venli had actually held this form previously; from her reaction here, though, I don’t think so. I still think she might have discovered another form—maybe Scholarform—that was another “form of power” subject to the old gods, but I think this one is new to her. Pretty sure she knew it would be controlled by the gods, however, and was all in favor of that minor detail.

It’s so sad to read this. Thude sees Eshonai’s red eyes, and is as worried as the old Eshonai would have been; now, she brushes aside his concern as “it’s a representation of what I’ve become.” (Girl, I think that was his point…) She also feels the Everstorm, lurking beyond the Rhythms. Does this mean it will be summoned from the Cognitive Realm, or perhaps the Spiritual Realm, when it comes? Speculate!

 

Stormwatch: This is the morning after the highstorm, the same one we’ve been seeing from different angles for several weeks now. It’s day 31 of the book; 38 days remaining in the countdown.

 

Sprenspotting: I’m not sure how active the spren itself is in this form, but we sure do see a lot of red lightning around Eshonai in this form. Here, it’s just emanating from her fingers if she makes a sudden fist, and running up her legs as they absorb the impact of landing after jumping the chasm; IIRC, we’ll see other manifestations later.

 

Heraldic Symbolism: The Listener icon is obvious, as it’s the one we always get for Eshonai’s POVs. Why do we have Nalan for the sole Herald? Confidence? Judgment? Or is he now in the same camp as the old gods?

 

Well. That was… a weird set of Interludes. Much, much more directly involved in the current plot arc than the ones we saw back in TWoK! Join us now in the Storm Cellar to hide from the storm talk about the Interludes. And of course come back next week, when Carl will dive into Part 3 with Adolin, Navani and a lot of big words.


Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She’s currently trying desperately to obey the beta-reading rules and make comments as she goes instead of just racing to the end of the latest marvelous book. She’s not succeeding very well.

About the Author

Alice Arneson

Author

Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She’s currently trying desperately to obey the beta-reading rules and make comments as she goes instead of just racing to the end of the latest marvelous book. She’s not succeeding very well.
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Roket
10 years ago

Soo many juicy tidbits that just lead to more questions! So rich.

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10 years ago

I-7
Exactly. I got nothin’ especially relevant to add, just questions. It does appear that “Taln” thinks everyone else in the room is burning or being tortured. Which kinda leads me to believe he is the real Taln. Methinks Brandon is being coy about Taln to sow confusion.

Maybe 9 swords/stars because 9 Heralds survived the last Desolation.

I-8
Just…Eshonai: oh, no! I don’t believe Venli previously held Stormform (YMMV). Some other Listener would have noticed and it would, I think, be difficult for her to change to a different form without/before some collateral damage.

I’ll take a WAG that both Highstorms and Everstorms originate in the Cognative Realm since they seem to be a thing of the mind. But the more I think about it, the more I want to argue with myself.

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10 years ago

All I can say about this is: Poor Eshonai! I do think that Venli knew exactly what to expect. And I think her arguments about wanting to be the first were fake. She wanted Eshonai to be first so that the one powerful person cabaple of objecting to the transformation would already be under control of the new form. Bad Venli.

As for Taln. I really don’t know what to think. He certainly seems legit with all the mad muttering and his internal monologue. But Brandon is being sly with us, so I’m confused. Who else could it be though? maybe one of the other Heralds?

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10 years ago

Regarding Taln, what comes to mind is the Ship of Perseus.

The Ship of Perseus had parts replaced until the entire ship had been replaced. At which point, can we still say it was the Ship of Perseus? Or is it a new ship?

I wonder if this is what happened to Taln. He has been tortured, killed and healed so many times, there is nothing of himself left.

The upside, is that Honor is not merely filling the cracks, but filling him entirely, because he is no longer anything but cracks.

At least I hope so.

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10 years ago

It is the issue with the blade that is making the question of Taln identity complicated. The blade he is escorted with is not an Honor Blade. If he really had arrived straight from Damnation, he would not be picking up a dead shard blade (would he even think it was possible to use a blade not bonded to you?).

So either the blade was swapped at Kholinar or he is not Taln. Either one has major ramifications.

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10 years ago

My thought is that Hoid found / trained somebody to play Taln. Maybe to confuse Amaram, The Ghostbloods and anyone else who might come looking? Get 1 guy (preferably insane) + 1 shardblade = 1 Herald of War

In the meantime the real Herald of War can actually do something for the upcoming war (and presumably against Odium), with none the wiser.

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10 years ago

We know that Hoid is trying to gain the powers of each world he visits.

Did Hoid take it to gain surgebinding?
I am doubtful, because that would still mean, he would need all 10 blades, and that doesn’t seem very practical.

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10 years ago

I think Hoid took the Honorblade and replaced it with a Shardblade. At this point in the series, Hoid believes there is nobody at the Shattered Plains who would know that Heralds have Honorblades and they operately slightly different than Shardblades.

A wacky theory (which I do not actually believe) is that the “Taln” we see in this interlude is a Herald but is not Taln. Rather, it is one of the other Heralds who thinks or believes he/she is Taln.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)

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10 years ago

@8 I don’t think your theory regarding the-person-currently-known-as-Taln is that wacky. If I had to pick a Herald, I’d guess that he is Jezrien. Nale’s comments seem to indicate that Jezrien is insane. Also, he did a pretty good job of protecting Amaram from freaky-mask-lady.

As far as Hoid taking the Honorblade, there is a WOB that indicates that Hoid did not take it, but may or may not know what happened to it. http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1115 (Question 33)

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10 years ago

Eshonai’s story is so tragic… I see it ending badly for her. I hope she somehow can overcome storm form, but I just dont see it happening.

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10 years ago

On Taln: how could you fake internal dialogue like that?
VladZ@6 I’m not sure that he could just be switched with a madman. He freaks out at Shallan when she starts lightweaving and says:

“One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember . . . He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But . . . When . . .”

When Wit takes off near the horn eater peaks I was thinking he was going to visit the body of water that Rock talks about later.

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10 years ago

@2 – Yes, and we frequently see only 9 Heralds mentioned throughout WOR and TWoK – I specifically recall a passage in TWoK where there is a Herald conspicuously missing from the palace when Szeth goes to assassinate Gavilar in the beginning. The text mentions it is odd because Gavilar is known to be especially devout in his Vorin worship. Perhaps 9 Heralds alludes to 9 Heralds who betrayed mankind and 1 true Herald…

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leiftinspace
10 years ago

@12, I think the missing Herald was Shalash, who was missing because the REAL Shalash was going around destroying all of her likenesses.

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10 years ago

What are the implications of Eshonai already being able to feel the building storm? It was already… somewhere? before they called it.
Here is that quote:

“I feel a tempest brewing just beyond our experience. A powerful, angry tempest. A highstorm. With enough of us bearing this form together, we could bring it. We could bend the storms to our will, and could bring them down upon our enemies.”

She uses the word angry. Could this be where Odium’s investiture is stored?

One thought on Heraldic a Symbolism: Nalan’s associated essence is vapor. Is there a reason his icon has lightening in the background? Because the lightening fits..

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Gepeto
10 years ago

Third, what is the deal with this Blade? In the TWoK Epilogue, it seemed
obvious that the reason the Blade didn’t vanish when Taln dropped it is
that it was an Honorblade, which we already knew would only vanish
automatically when the true owner was killed.

How can we be sure that is the case? I recall Brandon stating Honorblade would not automatically disintegrate when being put down whereas Shardblades would, unless you send them the command not to. What makes us think Taln has not send the command to his Shardblade to simply remain there?

We have seen all the Shardbearers drop their Blades in similar fashion without any apparent struggle. Dalinar even let his newly bonded Blade unattended for a prolonged period of time in order to set a trap to Amaram. Untrained Renarin casually puts his on the floor. Aladar rents his to his champion more often then not. We had that discussion a few weeks back… forcing a Blade to remain solid seems rather easy.

So how can we conclude without the hinch of a doubt the original Blade was the Honorblade simply based on the fact it remained solid after he dropped it?

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10 years ago

Bellaberry @11
Yes, exactly (both ideas)!

and @14
Perhaps she’s sensing Odium himself on the planet where he is confined. Or the Unmade? If it was just Odium’s investiture, wouldn’t there have been some obvious physical manifestation of said investiture in the last 4500 years? Somethimg pretty ugly, at that, to reflect Odium’s nature. I’m trying to draw parallels to Mistborn in that respect, could be a bad path to follow.
(I wouldn’t be surprised if some of Tanavast’s investiture was somehow responsible for Highstorms either. Brandon has said they are partly natural and partly magical.)

Re: Honorblades–specifically “Taln’s”
Don’t forget they can change shape over time (for whatever reason). The change we (are led to believe we) see in “Taln’s” seems rather extreme, though.

FenrirMoridin
10 years ago

Both of these Interludes were rough, both for the characters and for us readers (so much confusion in Taln’s, so much sadness at Eshonai’s).

I do think Taln is the Herald, but there’s so much suspicious stuff going on, it does seem like there could be some kind of crazy gambit going on (although if it is so, I wonder who the Taln is meant to trick? Just Amaram seems like way too little for how much effort must have gone into the trick).

Oh Eshonai. Poor, poor Eshonai.
I think (well more precisely hope) she will be freed somehow (I like the idea that somehow the events of the ending of book 2 would lead to it).

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10 years ago

I think that up to this point “Taln” is Taln. If a switch happened, it happened after this interlude (unless Jezrien attracted some major confusionspren).

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STBLST
10 years ago

It seems to me that the dark skinned, dark eyed, deranged man is either a Herald or a world-hopper. He is extremely powerful (he nearly battered down the Kholinar city gate before slicing through the bar with his sword), very sharp eyed, and very quick (he snatches those poisoned darts in the air). He possesses ancient knowledge (that Shallan’s Lightweaving marks her as a Radiant whose order Ishar founded). There is little reason to suspect that he is not Taln judging from his references to burning. His sword is another matter. His sword at the Kholinar gate was an honorblade, while the current blade associated with him is a dead-spren blade. It is not known who switched the blades since Hoid is excluded according to WOB, but the queen was in a good position to have kept the honorblade once she ferreted out the identity of the crazed, powerful person entering her city. The switching of blades could have involved Liss (now her maid) who possessed a shardblade. In any case, the switching of the blades must be considered a current mystery, but not the identity of the owner – despite some deflective language from BWS.

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10 years ago

Ever since I started reading I-7 earlier today I’ve been trying to figure out why I have absolutely no memory of it. I’ve come up with nothing. I’m guessing that somehow I zipped past it in my Kindle somehow. That’s the only explanation for it.

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10 years ago

20. STBLST
That is why I mentioned the Ship of Perseus.
This looks and acts like Taln, so what is keeping it from being Taln?

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10 years ago

Ways @16 does it say somewhere in book or a WoB that odium is confined to a separate planet?

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Chipman
10 years ago

Just pulling this from memory so could be wrong but I think the mountains and falling stars are a hint that the honor blades are stored in shinovar. I think in the Taravangian interlude or one with Szeth mantion they had them and they gave him one when naming him truthless. Haven’t read the book in a while just following the re-read so I will have to see later.

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10 years ago

Bellaberry @@@@@ 24 – WoB on Odium being on Braize: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3934-qa-at-spokane-barnes-noble/

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Green Hoodie Mistborn
10 years ago

@11 – Well he Hoid had to take a study break to show up at the Wedding on Scadrial didn’t he? Could be that’s where he was going at this point, use the pool to world hop back to Scadrial for some reason at that wedding.

I have to think this is Taln, and I have stated as much at 17th Shard before. As to who took it, it could also ahve been swapped out. There is a whole thread on the topic here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14124-who-has-talns-blade/

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10 years ago

My question is, can Taln recall his blade at any time, like a regular (unbonded) shardblade?
What of the rest of the Heralds?

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10 years ago

@23 That would explain it, Alice, as I don’t really recall I-8 either. I think the concepts there were presented well enough later that it wasn’t such a slap in the face, and I just figured I had forgotten it.

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10 years ago

Thanks, jeremyguebert. It would have taken me a minute (or 60) to find the reference. There seems to be confusion about the spelling of Braize/Brayse, but that’s where Odium’s supposedly confined. Seems like the seals may be weakening though.

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10 years ago

No problem. I got to that thread on 17th Shard from the Coppermind. The Coppermind says Braize, but the thread says Brayse – not sure which is more accurate.

I have to agree with Wetlander about this interlude – at least as many new questions as there are answers.

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ClayPigeon
10 years ago

Long-time lurker…

It struck me while looking at the character icon for I-7 that perhaps one of the 10 Heralds ends up as a Judas-type betrayer and the icon with 9 swords/stars is foreshadow. There has been much talk of who Odium’s champion will be. Could this be it? And if Nalan, who is already being set up through other interludes as pretty nasty (and who takes as his disciple Szeth and gives him a pretty evil sword), is that future evil champion, perhaps that explains why he is the sole Herald pictured in I-8 when stormform and the old gods show up.

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Confutus
10 years ago

SBLST @@@@@ 20
Minor correction. I also thought that Taln was saying that Shallan was in Ishar’s order of KR, which didn’t fit with all evidence I had seen and confused me a bit. So, I asked Brandon about it at a signing. He explained to me that no, it was Ishar who had the idea of organizing the emerging spren-bonded Surgebinders into the Knights Radiant in the first place. Each of the Heralds then became patron of an order. I think this was mentioned in one of the epigraphs, so there’s no spoiler here, but that is the correct interpretation.

nageler
nageler
10 years ago

I am fairly convinced that the madman is actually Taln, and that his Honorblade was switched for a shardblade. There is really no evidence to say who was involved in the switch, but my first guess would the group who apparently already had possession of at least one Honorblade (Szeth’s)–the Shin and their Stone Shamans.

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STBLST
10 years ago

@33 Confutus. I agree and didn’t intend any other implication despite my imprecise language.

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10 years ago

The interesting thing to note about the Radiant orders and their patron Heralds is that Nalan was reluctant to accept being patron of an order. He was the last of the Heralds to accept patronage of an order. I can’t recall which of the epigraphs stated this off the top of my head but it was one of the quotes from the in world Words of Radiance.

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10 years ago

Based on his thoughts, I also think it is the real Taln, but the missing Taln icon and Brandons referencing is troubling.
So if it’s not Taln…
I never pay attention to descriptions, so please somebody help: Do we have enough description to know if the man, who arrived at the end of WoK is the same as here? If not, could Hoid/Wit have spirited away and replaced Man and Blade? – This would work with Brandon saying Hoid didn’t switch the Blade, but it wouldn’t explain this guy’s thoughts.

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10 years ago

ClayPigeon @32
Now that’s interesting speculation–a future event rather than something from the past. We haven’t seen (as far as I remember, anyway) foreshadowing of this sort in the iconography previously, but who knows.

travyl @37
Taln is presumed to have a scar since there is a constellation in the Rosharan skies named Taln’s Scar, but that is by no means proof he does. Any other description(s) I’ve forgotten. A trip to the books will be required.

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10 years ago

This morning I had a shower revalation. Those are usually out there, but I thought I would present it anyway.

What if the WOR Taln is a Kandra?

Why Hoid would replace the real Taln with a Kandra, I haven’t quite figured out, yet. Unless he is a decoy for those who would hinder Taln from fulfilling his purpose as a Herald.

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mthwhite
10 years ago

I also had a new thought this morning. We know that the radiants no longer match their ideals. What if a radiant had to put some part of their character/soul into the honor blades themselves? Therefore, without the blades, there was an unintended consequence of losing their way.

This could also apply to taln in that in WoK he still had the honor blade, so brandon identified him as taln, but once we see him in WoR he no longer has the blade, so he isn’t “completely” Taln.

Just some random musings on a Monday.

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10 years ago

Thanks Wetlander 39.
So the man indeed seems to be the same (I’m opposed to the idea of it being a kandra, though (@40) it is a good theory :)

That the Blade doesn’t vanish in WoK Epilogue could also be that it was a not-bonded Shardblade vs Honorblade and that Dalinar has no trouble un-bonding the other Blade might be because of his new bond to “a” spren.

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10 years ago

I know. Too Weird. Would have to involve time travel back to retrieve Taln’s bones from his previous incarnation 4000+ years ago. Do Heralds leave behind a physical body when they die during a desolation?

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10 years ago

Not that I am a fan of the Kandra theory, but would killing him even really kill him?
He has a painful kind of immortality.

But going back to the blade, I was curious if the original Heralds were still bonded to their blades. But if Szeth bonded the honorblade he had, then the Heralds will have to reclaim their blades the hard way. I suppose Taln may have to do some searching for his own blade as well.

Assuming this is Taln. I do assume that this is what is left of him.

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10 years ago

Wetlandernw @39
Kalak thinks to himself of Taln as “The one of them who was lost” at the end of TWOK Prelude. I suppose that brings up the possibility of Kalak and Hoid having a communications channel.

(The only description of Honorblades I found in the Prelude is ornate, which doesn’t help one iota with deciding on the authenticity of “Taln’s” blade in the Epilogue. Not that it matters.)

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Curiosity
10 years ago

I’m fairly confident that the nine “stars” are the nine Honorblades left behind after the Final Desolation. It signifies the betrayal of Taln by the other nine Heralds. The mountains may point to Shinovar, but I think that this is focusing more on the character of Taln rather than the other nine. In the prelude, Kalak does look back at the 9 blades sticking out of the rock and thinks “Forgive us,” thinking of Taln.

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IAmTheBeard
10 years ago

Over on the 17th Shard someone brought up a striking similarity between “Taln” and a bridgeman that Kaladin saves in tWoK. There is a dark-skinned man who Kaladin assumes will have an accent but actually speaks perfect Alethi. It’s not quite too perfect but it is interesting.

Here’s the link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/24239-during-a-re-read-the-saved-bridgeman/#entry245084

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mail-mi
9 years ago

Okay, I thought it was pretty obvious that the image in Taln’s chapter represented Taln’s Scar, the strip of red stars in the sky.

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7 years ago

Just going through these comments and my assumption when Wit/Hoid went off running into the mountains was that he was going to meet Jasnah.

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7 years ago

If Taln’s blade was switched out, then does he hear screaming like Renarin?

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6 years ago

Minor Note: You say Ship of PERSEUS but the term is Ship of THESEUS. I am glad you brought it up though